Normal Everyday Anger And Domestic Self-disgust

M[m]: What are some of your earliest sonic memories? Do any of these point towards your interest in noise/ PE?

Kevin: My first loves as a child were The Beatles, The Stones, David Bowie, then Zeppelin, Sabbath, ELP etc. The usual tastes as a pre and early teen around that time for a kid really into music. This was before punk broke of course. My earliest reference to abstract noise would be guitar smashing and feedback, the obvious guys like Townshend, Blackmore and Hendrix. I loved the thrill and explosive energy of the sound and guitar wrecking.

I was also familiar with classical composers like Stockhausen and others which must have helped develop a taste for more abstract sounds. German musicians like Can and Faust, plus the Velvet Underground were making some abrasive sounds at that time too, so obviously I liked them. Later it was post-punk rather than punk that interested me. However exciting it was, Punk for all its qualities was still just an angry version of rock and roll with a very strict and standard format. So its interest for me was more social than musical. The DIY aesthetic, plus the possibility of anyone making music helped us start up for sure.

Later on, The Birthday Party were fucking phenomenal live, I was always interested in mixing their fucked up sleazy chaos and brutality with the intensity and introspection of another great live band at that time, Joy Division.

 

M[m]: What were some of the first experimental/ noise releases you heard?

Kevin:  Apart from classical composers and Jazz, I guess ultimately, it was Suicide and TG that opened my mind to electronic music being used as a tool for making violent sounds rather than ambient, abstract, or pop music. Though I love the early Tangerine Dream records, everything else electronic was fairly insipid to my ears. Suicides ‘Frankie Teardrop’ SPK’s Slogun and ‘Throbbing Gristles ‘Slug Bait’ were exceptional examples of the form. Later, I loved the early NWW and United Daries releases. The careful composition, the conflicting sounds and the craft that went into making those albums was very inspiring. The first thing I heard that was approaching what is called noise today, would be Japanese Noise music. Hijokoden, Masonna and Incapacitants all blew my mind when I first heard them.

M[m]: Sutcliffe Jugend were one of the key/ important projects within 80’s PE. Please talk a little bit about how you both first met and formed the project. And what was the origins of the project's name?

Kevin:  I consider myself very lucky to be involved in making a new kind of music at its very formation. The right time and the right place if you like, that and a modicum of talent for crafting vicious sounds obviously helped.

I met Paul at college, we hit it off with our love of David Bowie, alternative music, philosophy, and perhaps just as important, a shared sense of humour. Paul’s first involvement with SJ was for the Live Studio Action recording in the early 80’s. Paul then gradually became a full-time member, and has been an essential part of Sutcliffe Jugend and then Sutcliffe No More ever since. Our interplay and understanding both when recording and playing live has become very instinctive and essential in our development.

The name was taken from an early song we did, then after a very short break the name was changed to Sutcliffe No More permanently, for no other reason than it worked and we both really liked it.

 

M[m]: What were the early Sutcliffe Jugend shows like? And do you have memories of particular shows- be they bad or good?

Kevin:  I remember them being very intense with a huge amount of microphone feedback. I remember enjoying them all, with the exception of one show at a festival in London. I had flu and a family issue hanging over me, so we went on first so I could get back home earlier. Meanwhile, the soundcunt decided to fuck off and have a kebab during our set so the mix was fucking atrocious. All we could hear was Paul’s guitar, so he started kicking around the stage while I did my best Frank Sinatra impression. A complete nightmare, or fucking hilarious depending on your point of view. Apart from that they were and still continue to be wonderful occasions. The early gigs were more chaotic and less rehearsed. The atmosphere depended very much on the audiences familiarity with us. Often stunned silence changed to applause by the end which was very strange. It always came after another long silence, like the crowd were letting the experience set in first. We never did encores because we played until we had nothing else to give and the same applies now. I remember us playing with Sonic Youth at the Roundhouse in London, which was pretty chaotic. The venue pulled the plug on us halfway through our set, which we took as a success at such an established venue. That, and in-front of an audience that were considered ‘hip’ and liberal in taste. The crowd were very hostile as I recall. I also remember Paul being sick when he came off stage in Barcelona, me going outside the venue and singing without a microphone at the end of the set, and the life-changing experience of playing Japan. We always aim to get the biggest buzz live, and that’s done by making them as relentlessly intense and brutal as we can sonically, without resorting to a chaotic and unstructured mess. It’s like we’re squeezing the very most out of the songs and getting to the heart of what we’re about and of course getting ourselves to that unparalleled high.

 

M[m]: What initially fascinated you about Peter Sutcliffe? And were they any other serial killers that also fascinated you at the beginning of Sutcliffe Jugend?

Kevin:  To be honest, I’m not interested in those kind of people anymore, but I guess my interest was the same as anyone else: How? Why? And what are the steps to get to that point? How much was society to blame, or was it upbringing or maybe it was genetic? Plus the sheer extremity of behaviour and brutality is what fascinates us all. It’s all so alien to most ‘normal’ people. The more you read, the more you understand how people get fucked up. I remember Ted Bundy being interesting, just because he was so articulate and intelligent and so he was a great insight. But other than that, my interests have become more about the minutiae, real life for normal people, domestic situations and the psychology of dealing with day-to-day life, when all you see around you is fucked up.

 

M[m]: one of Sutcliffe Jugend most notorious early releases was the ten-cassette boxset We Spit On Your Grave. Please talk a little bit about how this massive release came about? And do you have any plans for a reissue? As it’s been out of print for some years.

Kevin:  Well first off, a large chunk of it is now available as part of the vinyl boxset ‘Campaign 1979-2000’ available through Vinyl On Demand Records. I selected the best material as part of a ten LP set, the first part to its sister release ‘Campaign 2005-2020’. I probably won’t be releasing it in any other format unless with VoD, and that would be his call. It’s been out of print since the year after it was released, which is now over four decades ago, unbelievably. It only sold a small handful at the time so became very desirable, a holy grail for some fans. Having said that music sells even less these days thanks to the glorious gift of streaming, downloads and YouTube.

The release initially came about because I had a large amount of material available, all recorded in the years prior to sending a cassette to the record label Come Org. The rest is well documented elsewhere. Amusingly, part of the appeal of doing that many tapes, was the plastic cassette holder available at the time held ten cassette cases.

Personally, it was a fucking nightmare to record the remaining material in such a short time, and an even bigger one for anyone who lived within a two-mile radius of the street I recorded it in. It still sounds fucking violent, so fuck knows what the neighbours made of it then. I love it of course now, for all its flaws.

 

M[m]: you talk about the noisy & neighbours disturbing recording of We Spit On Your Grave. So I take it you just recorded it loud & raw? And did you ever get anyone to come knocking to complain?

Kevin:  No, but I wouldn’t have heard them anyway.

 

M[m]: Following on from the last question what was your recording set-up/ kit used in this period? And do you still use anything from this period?

Kevin:   We still use Wasp synthesizers, tapes and microphone feedback, which is everything I used back then. We’ve used a wide range of gear since, numerous synths, samplers, keyboards and guitars, as well as autoharp, violin, ‘cello and piano. We use anything we can get our hands on, if can reproduce the sounds in our imagination. It also helps keep us creative.

M[m]: Do you have any plans to reissue Campaign 1979-2000 in CD form?

Kevin:  Not at the moment, I can’t see it, it’s really up to Frank at VoD.

 

M[m]: In 2019 you both formed Slaves No More which saw you step away from Sutcliffe Jugend sound/ identity - release one 2020 double CD album The Unravelling. Please talk a little bit about this project, the said release, and do you hope to release more releases under the Slaves No More banner?

Kevin:  The project was in part me hitting a brick wall with Sutcliffe Jugend. I needed an artistic reboot, a chance to breathe and reconsider if you like. We were trying to find a new way forward, and contemplate whether Sutcliffe Jugend still had a future. Which ultimately it did of course, but with the new name Sutcliffe No More.

The Unraveling’ album was essentially about my own unravelling mentally as an artist, and how that was linked to Paul and a friend, the artist James Chinnery who provided all the artwork for the release. It also gave a huge nod to Scott Walkers later work, but our own take on it. I’m very pleased with it, and would go back to the project again one day if we ever find the time and inspiration

 

M[m]: Seemingly one of your main sonic focus at the moment is Sutcliffe No More- which to date has had three releases, the most recent of these being Normal released on Klanggalerie this year. Please talk a little bit about how this project came about?

Kevin:  SNM is our main focus and attention exactly the same as SJ were, essentially it’s a continuation of the same thing with a slight name change. Lockdown meant we had to record remotely, so the first two SNM releases were done in that way. The first, ‘Domestic’ was almost exclusively about domestic abuse, with the concept devised before the pandemic started. A prescient subject regards the growth of domestic violence during the lockdown period. It was as harrowing to make as it sounds, but I believe we nailed the effect we were after.

I think we realised almost subconsciously that we had found the way forward as SNM, so when the pandemic was over we were keen to gig again. The ‘Consenting Adult’ album was almost a joy to record after the intensity of ‘’Domestic’. I think that comes through in the freedom and variety of the content.

I recorded the two Patient K albums around this time also for the 4ib label. The vocals and lyrics were similar to SNM, but the music was in some ways even more raw. Something I may follow up on, again time permitting.

 

M[m]: Normal really is a harrowing mix of extreme electronica, muffled ‘n’ deformed beats, and noisily swooping bass ‘n’ drones. It clearly connects back to your PE past, but experimenting with it & its tropes. Was it a deliberate move away from PE, or did it happen organically?

Kevin: Strangely for me, it was probably the closest thing we’ve done to a PE album in the last ten years, maybe with the exception of ‘Relentless’. Having said that I know what you mean, it brings in too many post-industrial and other elements to mimic any generic PE album. A lot of early PE, like punk for example, suffers from being held up by those that followed as a strict template for what it should be, and hence missing the point. Whereas those who originated the genre discovered or invented it as they passed through on their creative journey, before moving on and pushing it in other directions. A journey had they not taken, they would never have made an exciting new music in the first place. They would have stuck to some other outdated established style. The same can obviously be found in other art forms. Our restless creative nature demands we do something different every time and make something that we, or nobody else had ever done. We’re making music that is totally unique both sonically and lyrically, that nobody else makes, that we want to hear. Filling that void if you like.

The album ‘Normal’ was a step forward again for me personally, the lyrics being more targeted, especially that is, towards narcissistic celebrity power and the abuse of that power sexually. There is also a lot happening on social media that I cover too. It was the kind of album that we’d been planning on making for about five years, but we never had the right combination of sounds and words. Especially regards the use of rhythm and the third person observational themes.

 

M[m]: Talk a little bit about how you started working with Klanggalerie?

Kevin:  I met Walter who runs Klanggalerie at a festival in Austria, and we hit it off straight away. We both have a taste for experimental jazz and love The Residents, so there was plenty to talk about. He also has a great sense of humour which is always a bonus. Walter showed an interest in releasing SNM and liked the sound of my autoharp project. So I also have two solo albums on the label, ‘Music For An Unprepared Autoharp’ and ‘Her Favourite Distance Was That Between A Cough And A Dying Horse’ which was based on the live show I did for the Klanggalerie 30-year anniversary festival. That album uses tape and vocals in addition to the autoharp. He’s also released a solo album by Paul called ‘Submerged’.

We only really work with people we make a connection with. They become friends and people we can obviously trust. Hopefully, we’ll be doing another album with the label later this year.

 

 

M[m]: Where do you see Sutcliffe No More sound going next, will it follow the more extreme sound of Normal, or do you think you might return to the unsettling & disturbing ambience of the projects second album Domestic?

Kevin: We have another three albums ready. We’ve always been very prolific when recording so there’s often more than one project on the go. We find something to go with and pursue it relentlessly and all avenues are exhausted, so we use only a fraction of the material we set to tape. We use a technique similar to Can or Miles Davis for editing tracks, splicing good sections together and cutting away the fat.

The three albums we’ve recorded are very different to each other, and very different to ‘Normal’. One is an album of lengthy instrumentals we’ve recorded for the 4ib label in Singapore called ‘House Of Dolls’. The second is called ‘Cute’ for the Zoharum label in Poland. That album features vocals and is more varied in style than ‘Normal’, both musically and vocally. The third album, for Klanggalerie this year, is more fucked up sound and vocal-wise, another push in a different direction, it should be finished in a month or two.

As with everything we then have to live with it for a period, to make sure we’re happy with it. We’ve already started discussing the next two albums we’re recording, but we won’t start work on that until later in the year.

M[m]: Could you please talk a little bit about your songwriting process with Sutcliffe No More? Do you both have set roles within the process, or do you share the roles?

Kevin:  The process varies from song to song and project to project. We usually talk about the concept and how the album is going to sound beforehand. Sometimes though, it becomes apparent once we start. When we get going, one of us brings in an idea, or we work something from scratch in the studio. I usually have pre-written lyrics, although very occasionally improvise them on the spot. Most vocal recordings are single takes. Music in the studio is also usually played live in a single take, occasionally where necessary, we will use overdubs. I’ll do the vocals separately, although I still like to try them live when I can. As I mentioned before there’s then an editing process that follows. One quirk we have, and it’s a useful tool, is that if one of us doesn’t like something it goes straight away. Nothing is precious. The system works really well and saves a lot of wasted time, especially when you’re trying to nail down a particular sound for the track or album. Occasionally, if something is good, but doesn’t work with the project, it’ll get shelved for use in future, and hopefully it fits something else we do.

We try and give each album an overall feel to match the concept or lyrics and also to sate our creative restlessness. Every album is not only a natural progression from the previous one, but from our whole line of recordings. We are compelled to do what we do, to follow our passions, to carry on, no compromises. It’s not always easy, but it’s a huge pleasure. There's always that question in the back of your mind, “are we making the best and most important music in the world?”, but ultimately it’s kind of irrelevant, because ultimately it only has to be important and worthwhile to us, then if others like it, it’s a bonus.

The words have become more important to us over time, it’s not just music to us. It’s an outlook and a philosophy. We don’t fit in with any other bands, not just because of the words, but because of our music and attitude.

It’s worth mentioning that I have a book coming out which sets my lyrics and other writings into a new kind of format. It could be read as a novel, lyric book or some kind of demented rant. The publisher at Timeless books, is also working on presenting a limited edition scrapbook, so I’ve also been working on preparing that too.

 

M[m]: Has Sutcliffe No More played in a live setting yet? If so please could talk about your live set-up? And if not is it something you’d like to do?

Kevin:  It’s something we love to be honest, the high is fucking incredible, because of the nature of the music and the relentless intensity of the shows. The more we put in, the more we get out of it, hence we can only do three or four a year. We’ve done five gigs as SNM so far, Paris was our first, as it was our last as SJ. We did two sets, one a spoken word set, based on the album ‘Domestic’, the other was our normal full-on set. Then we did two shows in Austria, one being in Vienna with Klanggalerie. The last two shows were in Germany and were fucking insane. Both were at festivals, one being at Tower Transmissions in Dresden, which was more harsh and punishing, the second was at the Zugzwang festival in Darmstadt, which was looser and more fucked up. The gigs still have the ability to excite and surprise us. And that’s down to several contributing factors. The crowd obviously, and the venue, plus the sound, but ultimately, it’s down to our interaction with each other and allowing ourselves to follow the music as it develops and see where it takes us.

We’re still enjoying playing live as much as ever. The performances are still as intense as when we started and no two shows are ever the same. This again is down to our need for change, but live, we always want to walk off stage feeling like it was as good as it possibly could be. We have two more gigs in the pipeline. One in Altenburg, Germany at the Elektroanschlag 2024 Festival on the 5th and 6th April, and a gig in London, with a really special lineup of bands on the 20th of September.

 

M[m]: What has recently impacted you in the last six or so months- be it music, sound, art, literature, or film?

Kevin:  The last couple of years have been hectic, what with normal life, the box set, the book and recording several albums, I’m hoping things will calm down, so I can start consuming again. So not too much, the television series Fargo I enjoyed a lot. Films I enjoyed include ‘Killing of a Sacred Deer’ and I watched ‘Dogville’ again, which has stood the test of time and a second viewing well. Music-wise, I’ve recently discovered Mark Kozelek, done a deep dive into The Residents, total genius. I’ve also been listening to a lot of The Beatles after the recent documentary, plus I enjoyed some of the Klanggalerie releases, especially the Phil Minton release.

Thanks to Kevin for his time and efforts with the interview. Normal is still available from Klanggalerie, and can be purchased directly from here https://www.klanggalerie.com/gg439. Both Domestic & Consulting Adult are on 4ibrecords, and can be purchased here https://4ibrecords.com/